Self-interest January 2000

self-interest@lists.selflanguage.org

22 participants
21 discussions

Self Hack Weekend in S.F.
by Gordon F. Cichon 07 Feb '00

07 Feb '00

Hi all, Thorsten and me think it would be a good idea to meet again and complete the Self to Linux port. Since it is very advantageous to have members of the Self group like David in the vicinity, we would like to organize a meeting in the S.F. bay area. Thorsten happens to stay from 2/21 to 2/24 in New York and could drop in on S.F. the following weekend. I am going to try to get there at the same time, too. Our date proposal is the weekend 2/25-2/27 in S.F. How many are out there who would like to join another Self Hack Weekend taking place in S.F.? My cousins who live in Sebastopol some 60 miles north of S.F. offered to host the venue at the farm of my aunt. Here is a map: http://www.raspberrymedia.com/contact.html I is a very beautiful place. If it is too remote or too rural, we could also rent a conference room in S.F. So please give me feedback about your opinion of the location. If you are interested in participating, please e-mail me. Gordon.

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Dynamic Compilation [Was: Transmeta]
by Gordon F. Cichon 28 Jan '00

28 Jan '00

http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=00/01/26/197211 Here is an interesting essay about dynamic compilation based on the discussion around Transmeta. It gives an explanation about the performance advantage of dynamic compilation (as in Self and Transmeta) vs. static compilation (as in C++). Gordon. xxx

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Re: Transmeta
by Bharat Bedia 20 Jan '00

20 Jan '00

This may be a silly question but....in terms of executing byte code on a processor do you think its possible for Sun's MAJC chip to run Self byte code ? Indeed, are there any similarities between the MAJC chip and the Transmeta chip ? I'm sure you can tell, I don't know much about microprocessors :-( cheers, Bharat > From: Jecel Assumpcao Jr. [mailto:jecel@merlintec.com] > Since the Self group got to define the semantics of the > bytecodes, they simply > defined that an interrupt can only happen in certain "safe > points" (either a > non-inlined message send or the backwards jump at the end of > a loop with no > non-inlined sends). So the Self adaptive compilation can get > the same results > without strange hardware support. > ********************************************************************** This communication is confidential and is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. If you are not that person you are not permitted to make use of the information and you are requested to notify administrator(a)commerzbankzge.com immediately that you have received it and then destroy the copy in your possession. Commerzbank AG is regulated by the SFA for the conduct of investment business in the UK. **********************************************************************

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Transmeta
by Jerry Bell 20 Jan '00

20 Jan '00

The question you knew was going to be asked eventually: How does this 'morphing' stuff Transmeta is doing compare to the dynamic optimization in Self? What are the implications, if any? Jerry Bell jdbell(a)fareselaw.com

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Re: Transmeta
by Randy Smith 20 Jan '00

20 Jan '00

BTW, I *think* it's Transmeta where Ole Agesen, former Self team member, now works... > X-eGroups-Return: self-interest-return-553-Randall.Smith=Eng.Sun.COM(a)returns.egroups.com > Delivered-To: listsaver-egroups-self-interest(a)egroups.com > Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:34:30 +0100 > From: "Gordon F. Cichon" <gordon(a)cichon.com> > X-Accept-Language: de, en > To: self-interest(a)egroups.com > Mailing-List: contact self-interest-owner(a)egroups.com > X-Mailing-List: self-interest(a)egroups.com > List-Help: <http://www.egroups.com/group/self-interest/info.html>, <mailto:self-interest-help@egroups.com> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:self-interest-unsubscribe@egroups.com> > List-Archive: <http://www.egroups.com/group/self-interest/> > X-eGroups-Approved-By: jecel(a)merlintec.com via email > Subject: [self-interest] Re: Transmeta > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Jerry Bell wrote: > > How does this 'morphing' stuff Transmeta is doing compare to the > > dynamic optimization in Self? What are the implications, if any? > > There are three fields that use more or less on the same technology: > The Self programming language, the Java VM, and 'code morphing' in its > different characteristics. > They all rely on the dynamic translation of code into other > representations. > The code may be represented as Self byte code, as Java byte code, or > i86 machine code. The motivation of choosing exactly a particular > intermediate representation is different in these three cases of course. > And escpecially the i86 representation is not designed for dynamic > translation from the beginning. Therefore it is particularly difficult > in this case. > > The idea for the i86 came up, I think, with AMD who took a 29k core > and strapped a i86 to 'RISC operation' translator in front of it. Intel > did the same at their Pentium Pro-II-III design. The latest processors > like K7 cache information about this translation process in their first > level cache - like instruction boundaries. > > Digital recently presented a system which dynamically recompiles code > in software for Alpha processors - I can't remember right now whether > it was Alpha code for older architectures, or whether it works for i86 > as well. Nevertheless, the principle is always the same. > > It is just the next logical step to expose the code translation > mechanisms, > as translated code chunks get larger and span more than the first level > cache capacity. > > Please correct me if I'm wrong, I just cited from memory. > > Gordon. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > For the fastest and easiest way to backup your files and, access them from > anywhere. Try @backup Free for 30 days. Click here for a chance to win a > digital camera. > http://click.egroups.com/1/337/5/_/8257/_/948376079/ > > -- Check out your group's private Chat room > -- http://www.egroups.com/ChatPage?listName=self-interest&m=1 > >

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Re: Self on Linux/PPC
by Dave Ungar 19 Jan '00

19 Jan '00

I just tried downloading the file, and it did work for me. But I am also working on a new release, 4.1.2, which will 1. add support for 24-bit X frame buffers (SPARC) 2. fix two bugs on the Mac side, a minor one w.r.t animation, and a more obnoxious one where Self can lock out other Mac apps and other Self threads at times. - Dave

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Self on Linux/PPC
by Robert Kelley 17 Jan '00

17 Jan '00

OK, now I'm set up to discover how difficult the port to Linux/PPC might be. I'm also curious to try the latest Self on the Mac side. I am inconvenienced by the apparent disappearance of self.sunlabs.com and am looking for an alternative source of the latest Self bits and documentation. Please advise.

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Learning Self
by Marcus Schneider 14 Jan '00

14 Jan '00

Hi We are trying to learn SELF in a course at the University of Hannover and we are looking for a tutorial or some examples or anything else which might be helpful. We already read the tutorial at the sun homepage ("Prototype-Based Application Construction Using Self 4.0") and the "Self 4.0 Programmers Reference Manual". Is there anything else ??? Marcus

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Self i386 Port: Status
by Gordon F. Cichon 14 Jan '00

14 Jan '00

Hi all, I was just trying to get through to the Self VM prompt. This requires adapting the signal/stack handling. After quite a while figuring out the wright combination of Linux header files to define every required macro and structure exactly once, I get this polite linker message: > sig_unix.o: In function `SignalInterface::init_signal_stack(void)': > /home/t42/prj/self-4.1/vm/linux/debug/../../../vm/src/unix/os/sig_unix.c:277: warning: sigaltstack is not implemented and will always fail Dissappointing :-( Gordon.

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solaris 2.5
by Jecel Assumpcao Jr. 14 Jan '00

14 Jan '00

Was anyone able to get Self 4.1.1 to run on Solaris 2.5? Reinaldo Silveira tried on the Sparc 10 running Solaris 2.5 and on an UltraSparc running Solaris 2.5.1 and got the same results: ---------------------------------------- jade% ./Self Self Virtual Machine Version 4.1.10, Sat 06 Nov 99 19:37:28 Solaris 2.x (svr4) Copyright 1989-95: The Self Group (type _Credits for credits) Internal error: signal 12 code 0 addr 0x0 pc 0x2de160. VM Version: 4.1.10, Sat 06 Nov 99 19:37:28 Solaris 2.x (svr4) Self process 5813 on jade has crashed. Do you want to: 1) Quit Self (optionally attempting to write a snapshot) 2) Try to print the Self stack 3) Try to return to the Self prompt 4) Force a core dump Your choice: 2 Interrupt at PC 0x1e6eb0 C frame 0x7d8b08 (retPC 0x2de160) C frame 0x7d8b70 (retPC 0x2dddf8) C frame 0x7d8c68 (retPC 0x266920) C frame 0x7d8cd8 (retPC 0x20427c) C frame 0x7d8d48 (retPC 0) C frame 0x7d8e48 (retPC 0x1f2d48) C frame 0x7d8e88 (retPC 0) No Self method is running. Self process 5813 on jade has crashed. Do you want to: 1) Quit Self (optionally attempting to write a snapshot) 2) Try to print the Self stack 3) Try to return to the Self prompt 4) Force a core dump Your choice: 3 Cannot return to the prompt - Self is not properly initialized Self VM fatal error (../../../vm/src/any/runtime/interruptedCtx.c, line 65): Reached supposedly impossible case VM Version: 4.1.10, Sat 06 Nov 99 19:37:28 Solaris 2.x (svr4) Self process 5813 on jade has crashed. Do you want to: 1) Quit Self (optionally attempting to write a snapshot) 2) Try to print the Self stack 3) Try to return to the Self prompt 4) Force a core dump Your choice: 1 Enter snapshot name (hit return to omit snapshot) > No snapshot specified, will skip this step jade% --------------------------------------------- Self 4.0 runs just fine on these machines, and both Self 4.1 and 4.1.1 works ok on my Solaris 2.6 machine... Any ideas? Given that the differences between 4.0 and 4.1.1 are so small for the Sparc users, this isn't a big deal for now. -- Jecel

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Self-interest January 2000