Self-interest July 2016

self-interest@lists.selflanguage.org

9 participants
6 discussions

Quiet in Self land?
by Chris Double 07 Aug '16

07 Aug '16

It's been pretty quiet on this list, so I thought I'd start a conversation to see if the list is working. Anyone doing any interesting Self work? I sidelined my VNC client in Self for a bit due to getting busy in my day job but plan to get back to it soon and finish it off. It's pretty close. The missing part is mostly key handling. I'd like to tidy up my Android patches too and get them submitted so at least Intel android would work out of the box. What do people feel would make Self more viable as a fun project to hack on? -- http://www.bluishcoder.co.nz

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Re: documentation
by James Noble 25 Jul '16

25 Jul '16

> Great examples. But you omitted the source code. and this I think is one of the most significant cultural changes between Smalltalk and Java -- pretty much a generational change. Smalltalk people expected to read the source code, ditto for things like MacApp, ET++, MFC, all shipped with code and the expectation people would read it. The Lions book is another example. Software Tools. Then came Javadoc - and now people expect to be able to read only the documentation. I do it myself: read the code in Smalltalk or Self (or Grace): read the doc in C# or Java. a micro-paradigm shift if you will. James

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Ubuntu Snap
by Russell Allen 22 Jul '16

22 Jul '16

Has anyone made a ‘snap’ package thingy? It’s Ubuntu’s new distribution mechanism. As I understand it you create a package with all the dependencies included. It looks like a good candidate for a better way of distributing our VM than just a bare binary... Russell

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[Ann] Travis-CI integration for VM
by Russell Allen 06 Jul '16

06 Jul '16

Hi, Just a quick note that I finished something Tobias started a while back which is to integrate with travis-ci.org <http://travis-ci.org/> (which is a free CI/continuous integration service for open source software) so that on every push to the main sources on GitHub, we do a test build of the VM on Linux and macOS with gcc and clang and display a nice build status image. Go to http://github.com/russellallen/self <http://github.com/russellallen/self> to see it in action. It was a bit fiddly but now seems to be working OK. Cheers, Russell

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Re: [self-interest] Questions about Self
by David Ungar 04 Jul '16

04 Jul '16

Ron, My pleasure. Your viewpoint raises the question: "What is the essence of messaging between objects?" How would you explain it? What experiment could a Martian do to distinguish OO from non-OO? Or is it all in the mind? - David (from iPad, typos likely) > On Jun 27, 2016, at 5:24 AM, 'Welch, Ronald P (US)' Ronald.P.Welch(a)BAESYSTEMS.com [self-interest] <self-interest(a)yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > David, > > > Thanks very much for your insightful response. I am a huge fan of Mark Miller's work as well, and my admiration and for respect for your work goes without saying, of course. (But I will say it anyway, you are awesome :) > > I concur with your point about the deep differences that arise in object orient programing systems based their underlying paradigm. But to me, the fundamental idea that makes all the paradigms related, at least to some degree, is the isight about messaging between the objects being the essence, the heart if you will, of all the paradigms. The details can diverge from there with, to your point, far ranging effect, however. > > Thanks again, > Ron > ----------=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-========oOo========-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=---------- > mailto:Ronald.P.Welch@baesystems.com Phone:(607)206-8718 > BAE SYSTEMS 1701 North Street, Endicott, NY 13760 > ----------=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-===================-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=---------- > >> On Jun 26, 2016, at 3:04 PM, David Ungar ungar(a)me.com [self-interest] wrote: >> >> *** WARNING *** >> EXTERNAL EMAIL -- This message originates from outside our organization. >> >> >> >> Yes, but I have a long-standing debate with Mark Miller, whom I respect beyond words. And a long-standing unease about trying to understand one paradigm in terms of another according to the sort of argument in this link. >> >> >> Here’s my canonical example: Back in the day, Schemers would tell me that Smalltalk blocks were just Scheme lambdas. Yet, in Smalltalk, every control structure uses blocks (and dynamic dispatch), while in Scheme cond is a primitive, even though it could have been done differently. From a cognitive psych point of view, (see Women, Fire, and Dangerous Things by Lakoff IIRC), blocks are more basic than lambdas. The syntax is much shorter, and they are the fundamental building blocks of control in ST. Even though the interpreter might look similar for the two, there are deep differences in the process of programming, the patterns people reach for, debuggability (including support by the tools), etc. >> >> So I always worry, when I read that sort of argument. >> >> Whew! Didn’t intent to rant. >> >> Thanks, >> >> - David >> >> >> >>> On Jun 25, 2016, at 10:36 AM, 'Welch, Ronald P (US)' Ronald.P.Welch(a)BAESYSTEMS.com [self-interest] <self-interest(a)yahoogroups.com> wrote: >>> >>> A third way of looking at objects, which I rather like, is the lambda-based perspective: >>> >>> >>> http://erights.org/elib/capability/ode/ode-objects.html >>> >>> The last paragraph quotes Dr. Alan Kay… >>> >>> ----------=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-========oOo========-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=---------- >>> mailto:Ronald.P.Welch@baesystems.com Phone:(607)206-8718 >>> BAE SYSTEMS 1701 North Street, Endicott, NY 13760 >>> ----------=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-===================-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=---------- >>> >>>> On Jun 25, 2016, at 5:39 AM, Stephen De Gabrielle spdegabrielle(a)gmail.com [self-interest] wrote: >>>> >>>> *** WARNING *** >>>> EXTERNAL EMAIL -- This message originates from outside our organization. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> So we have prototypes (self & JavaScript) and classes (sometimes added to JavaScript). >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Is there another way? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> S. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 at 04:23, 'Jason Grossman' spam-me(a)xeny.net [self-interest] <self-interest(a)yahoogroups.com> wrote: >>>>> I wrote: >>>>> >>>>> > I just re-watched Alan Kay's famous talk "The Computer Revolution >>>>> > Hasn't Happened Yet", and it sounds to me like a very good argument >>>>> > against classes, although I doubt that he meant it to be! >>>>> >>>>> And I've just noticed that Alan Kay has recently (this week!) said: >>>>> >>>>> > I liked Self. "Good OOP" is still waiting for a much better notion to >>>>> > replace the idea of a "Class" >>>>> >>>>> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11939851 >>>>> >>>>> Jason >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Kind regards, >>>> Stephen >>>> -- >>>> Bigger than Scheme, cooler than Clojure & more fun than CL.(n=1) >>>> -- > >

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Questions about Self
by David Ungar 03 Jul '16

03 Jul '16

I am pleased and amazed at the attention you all lavish on Self. The recent activity has moved me to wonder: What is it about Self that appeals? What is it that you don’t like? I mean to ask about the language, environment, and implementation, not about the mailing list, web site, or even documentation. One reason this topic interests me is that I am watching the immense popularity of Swift, a somewhat different style of PL, and I am even enjoying Swift myself. Thanks in advance, - David

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Self-interest July 2016