Self-interest July 2002

self-interest@lists.selflanguage.org

13 participants
9 discussions

Re: [self-interest] Re: Book on programming with prototypes?
by kyle_hayes＠speakeasy.net 20 Aug '02

20 Aug '02

"Object Oriented Programming with Prototypes", Gunther Blaschek, Springer-Verlag, 1994, ISBN 3-540-56469-1 or ISBN 0-387-56469-1. It is about the programming language Omega which is (was) a prototype-based language for Macintosh. It has a lot of mentions of Self and a few of the elusive language Kevo (if anyone has a copy of Kevo around, let me know!). The first third of the book is about OO and prototype-based languages. I never had a Mac, so it wasn't as useful as it could have been when I got it. Best, Kyle

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Fileout problem
by Thorsten Dittmar 09 Aug '02

09 Aug '02

Hi, as you may know I try to implement selfUnit. I'm ready to distribute a beta version, but I have some problems to create the files. For necessary error handling I made a clone of the prototype process. I made a slot in globals called selfUnitProcess and I initialize it to process _Clone. So far it works fine. This slot is assigned to a module named selfUnitProcessing. I add three slot to that prototype and all of them are assigned to the module selfUnitProcessing. All slots are initialized to false. When I fileOut the module and look into the generated code, then there is no code generated for these slots. I checked the annotations and the module is correctly displayed. When you move the slots to another module, like tmp, then the tmp module will recognise that change, but also in that fileOut the code is still missing. I tried out several circumstances and it seams to me that _Clone message is the root of my problems. Unfortunately I have no chance to use the normal copy mechanism. Can anybody give me a hint? Thorsten

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Re: [self-interest] Digest Number 280 (long)
by Douglas Atique 30 Jul '02

30 Jul '02

> ---------- Mensagem original ----------- > Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 18:27:49 +0200 > From: Thorsten Dittmar <thorsten.dittmar(a)daedalos.com> > Subject: Re: Digest Number 279 > Can you explain a little bit more in detail what are you interests: > > - portability > - performance > - some special implementation details > I have several interests on the VM. First of all, my background is C and C++, and I love to see some really complex code. What I didn't expect is that the VM mixes it with assembly, with which I have no familiarity. I think Self is too good a language to be available only in one or two platforms. Portability is most important so that we can really (I mean not only through reading papers) assess its suitability to real world problems (and Jecel is doing a lot of real world work with it, so my feeling is good about it). On the other hand, I do not expect Self to be both widely portable and very fast, as performance is achieved at the cost of non-portability and complexity (Self 4.0 which I know more than the newer 4.1.x had lots of code to handle lookup in assembly, nmethods are machine code assembled on the fly, etc., so few people will not be scared by looking at that code). If I had to port Self with the knowledge I have today, I would forget about performance, downgrade it to an interpreted language to make the VM as simple as possible and then try to build incrementally all the compiler stuff and other performance-improving features. In fact, I think once we could have an interpreted VM plus some very primitive VM support, we could bootstrap a Self compiler in Self (if I recall it correctly, originally I got this idea from Jecel in the past). Why would all those bootstrapping techniques we study in compiler courses be applicable to C and not to Self? To sum up, my point is: should we have this difficult to grasp VM to get all the features and performance Self gives us? I guess not. But I also can't prove it. Yet. There were discussions about the VM in the past, in particular Gordon Cichon was involved in them and so was I. But I must admit I didn´t have many concepts and experience needed to port the VM at that time and my ideas sounded very silly. I haven't studied many languages. C++, Java, some BASIC, a little bit of CHILL (while at Alcatel), a little bit of FORTH and Self (most of them out of curiosity). Not even Smalltalk have I studied. I have grasped some Smalltalk concepts from the Self papers, when I finally understood that their syntax was very similar. The most useful for me at work are C++ and Java, but I sometimes envision Self as a distributed objects environment with its own bindings to CORBA and being used over the network by web applications. That would be very akin to the real world, but it is a very long path until we eventually get there. Regards, Douglas

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Re: [self-interest] Book on programming with prototypes?
by Douglas Atique 26 Jul '02

26 Jul '02

Thank you all for your book recommendations. If you have more, send them. I just found that the book by Masini is out of print, so I am considering ordering first the book by Craig to take a look at them. The book by Noble, Taivalsaari and Moore doesn't seem to be out of print, but Amazon doesn't present me an Add to Cart button, so I'll keep waiting. About the book by Blaschek, I had heard of Omega, but its licensing policies seemed to me not very nice so I dropped any interests in it. Anyway the book seems to have ideas to be absorbed. Regards, Douglas > ---------- Mensagem original ----------- > 1. Re: Re: Book on programming with prototypes? > From: kyle_hayes(a)speakeasy.net > 2. Re: Re: Book on programming with prototypes? > From: Ned Konz <ned(a)bike-nomad.com> > 3. Re: Re: Book on programming with prototypes? > From: Steve Dekorte <steve(a)dekorte.com>

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Book on programming with prototypes?
by d_atique 24 Jul '02

24 Jul '02

Hi, all. I've been away from this list and maybe this was already discussed, but I'll ask it anyway. Was any book ever published on prototype programmimg? I mean with a programming/design methodology focus (no philosophical books, please...). BTW, I've heard Self 4.1 is evolving and supports MacOS X. I'm glad to know that. Regards, Douglas

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Re: [self-interest] Digest Number 279
by Douglas Atique 24 Jul '02

24 Jul '02

Once, in the beginning of this list, I wanted to discuss Self VM implementation and found out that people were not so interested in it as I was. If I had the time, I would have created a self-internals- interest list to discuss those topics. If Albertina is willing to discuss specifically philosophy of prototype-based languages, maybe she could create a list for that matter in yahoo and we could place a pointer to it in this list. I am sure there will be many people interested in theoretical topics. Albertina, I recommend to you the book "On the origin of objects". by Brian Cantwell Smith (MIT Press, 19??). I couldn't finish it (lack of time) but it digs very deeply into philosophical issues. Regards to all, Douglas > ---------- Mensagem original ----------- > Assunto : [self-interest] Digest Number 279 > Message: 6 > Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 17:52:53 -0300 > From: Jecel Assumpcao Jr <jecel(a)merlintec.com> > Subject: list manners > > I had previously warned Albertina that many people here would not li ke > her long philosophical comments and would consider them off topic.

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Re: [self-interest] Digest Number 278
by Douglas Atique 23 Jul '02

23 Jul '02

I just want a book that explains the concept and contrasts prototypes against classes. A tutorial on how to start programming with prototypes when you know classes. Hands-on... Regards, Douglas > ---------- Mensagem original ----------- > > De : self-interest(a)yahoogroups.com > Para : self-interest(a)yahoogroups.com > Cc : > Data : 23 Jul 2002 13:44:36 -0000 > Assunto : [self-interest] Digest Number 278 > > There are 2 messages in this issue. > > Topics in this digest: > > 1. Re: Book on programming with prototypes? > From: Thorsten Dittmar <thorsten.dittmar(a)daedalos.com> > 2. the eternity of change! > From: Albertina Lourenci <lourenci(a)lsi.usp.br> > > > ____________________________________________________________________ ____ > ____________________________________________________________________ ____ > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 11:25:48 +0200 > From: Thorsten Dittmar <thorsten.dittmar(a)daedalos.com> > Subject: Re: Book on programming with prototypes? > > I know some books, that compare different prototype programming lang uages. > Can you specify a little bit more in detailed what you are looking f or? > > > On 7/9/02 7:42 PM, "d_atique" <datique(a)terra.com.br> wrote: > > > Hi, all. > > I've been away from this list and maybe this was already discussed , > > but I'll ask it anyway. Was any book ever published on prototype > > programmimg? I mean with a programming/design methodology focus (n o > > philosophical books, please...). > > BTW, I've heard Self 4.1 is evolving and supports MacOS X. I'm gla d > > to know that. > > Regards, > > Douglas > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info /terms/ > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________ ____ > ____________________________________________________________________ ____ > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 09:50:36 -0300 > From: Albertina Lourenci <lourenci(a)lsi.usp.br> > Subject: the eternity of change! > > > > Thorsten Dittmar wrote: > Dear: > > > I know some books, that compare different prototype programming la nguages. > > Can you specify a little bit more in detailed what you are looking for? > > > > On 7/9/02 7:42 PM, "d_atique" <datique(a)terra.com.br> wrote: > > > > > Hi, all. > > > I've been away from this list and maybe this was already discuss ed, > > > but I'll ask it anyway. Was any book ever published on prototype > > > programmimg? I mean with a programming/design methodology focus (no > > > philosophical books, please...). > > May I ask what is wrong with philosophical trends? The current crisi s > in object oriented programming is lack of philosophical knowledge! > What sort of philosophical knowledge? > At the beginning of the last century, a strong modern movement in ar t > happened. In music, for example the dodecaphonist Schoenberg advised : > Let the pupil learn the laws and effects of tonality just as if they still > prevailed, but let him know of the tendencies that are leading towa rd > their annulment. Let him know that the conditions leading to the dis solution > of the system are inherent in the conditions upon which it is establ ished. > Let him know that every livng thing has within it that which changes , develops, > and destroys it. Life and death are both equally present in the embr yo. What lies > between is time. Nothing intrinsic, that is: merely a dimension, whi ch is, however > necessarily consumated. Let the pupil learn by this example to recog nize what is > eternal: change and what is temporal: being (das Bestehen). Thus he will come to > the conclusion that much of what has been considered aesthetically f undamental, > that is, necessary to beauty, is by no means always rooted in the na ture of > things, that the imperfection of our senses drives us to those comp romises through > which we achieve order. For order is not demanded by the object, but by the > subject!!!Schoenberg, A. Theory of Harmony page 29! > Applying this to computer science: Doesn't the introduction of subj ect oriented > programming exactly reproduce the behaviour described by Schoenberg? > The precise paper from Roger T. Alexander and Jim Bieman entitled Ch allenges of > Aspect oriented technology presented at the 2002 ICSE Workshop in So ftware > Quality held in May Orlando Florida deconstructs this subjectivism beautifully > and brings to the fore the essence of the thing! > Who cares about this? By the negative mood of the paper even Roger a nd Jim > don't! > However semioticians, the experts in modeling care (among others cal led artists) > And exactly my paper presented at rOOts April 2002 Bergen tells us how > to deal with the essence of meaning! What's the problem here? > http://www.lsi.usp.br/~lourenci > It begins with > the foundations of things specific to the domain model - here sustainable > cities - how to generate them from the first cell, I mean the building? > And of course nobody cares about this, because everybody is homeless and lives > ón the streets ( I am being cynical!!) Sorry, only half of the popul ation is > homeless! > And those don't have access to schools! Hence the whole mankind has to put up > with the subjectivism of those who have homes!!! And don't care if their own children > > soon will not have homes!!! > > But anyhow incredibly another paper was published at last ECOOP'02 h eld in > Malaga. Design patterns as signs from James Noble and Robert Biddle! > Wonderful now we can contrast papers interested in prototypes and as pects > something like the subjective version from SElf called Us and class- based > languages and patterns! AS soon as I read it, I hope we can start a discussion! > ANyhow I want to congratulate Roger and Jim for their courage to dec onstruct > what can be better and now I hope they pluck up courage to do better programming > artifacts! > Best wishes > Albertina > > > > > > > > > > BTW, I've heard Self 4.1 is evolving and supports MacOS X. I'm g lad > > > to know that. > > > Regards, > > > Douglas > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/in fo/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info /terms/ > > > > ========================================== > > This email message has been verified against viruses and SPAM usin g MIMESweeper. > > Este email foi verificado quanto a SPAM e virus utilizando MIMESwe eper. > > http://www.mimesweeper.com > > ========================================== > > > [This message contained attachments] > > > > ____________________________________________________________________ ____ > ____________________________________________________________________ ____ > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/t erms/ > > > >

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request for comments
by Jecel Assumpcao Jr 19 Jul '02

19 Jul '02

I have written some suggestions about how we might make Self simpler on this list a few times in the past. Now I have created a swiki page with those suggestions and some others: http://www.merlintec.com:8080/software/11 I would be very happy to get some feedback from people with interest in language design. -- Jecel

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Fwd: [self-interest] Snapshot binary compatibility ?
by parnet＠insightbb.com 05 Jul '02

05 Jul '02

For Mach-sters and Squeak-sters and intercessory reflection-sters what the hell is endianess? Paul Arnett Begin forwarded message: > From: David Ungar <David.Ungar(a)Sun.COM> > Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 12:42:54 AM US/Eastern > To: self-interest(a)yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [self-interest] Snapshot binary compatibility ? > Reply-To: self-interest(a)yahoogroups.com > > Sure--I move snapshots back and forth all the time. > The endianness makes it easier. > > - David > > > At 3:25 PM +0200 6/28/02, Harald Gliebe wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> could anyone who is lucky enough to own a Sparc and a Mac tell me if >> it's >> possible to exchange snapshots between these two platforms ? >> One reason why the sparc-Snapshots don't work on Linux/Intel is of >> course >> the different endianess of the architectures, but this could easily be >> converted. If the snapshots work on Sparc and Mac, I'll try to add this >> feature for the Linux version. >> >> Best regards, >> Harald Gliebe >> >> >> >> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to >> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > -- > > > David Ungar > Sun Microsystems Laboratories > (650) 336-2618 > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > >

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Self-interest July 2002