Self-interest June 2016

self-interest@lists.selflanguage.org

19 participants
15 discussions

Quiet in Self land?
by Chris Double 07 Aug '16

07 Aug '16

It's been pretty quiet on this list, so I thought I'd start a conversation to see if the list is working. Anyone doing any interesting Self work? I sidelined my VNC client in Self for a bit due to getting busy in my day job but plan to get back to it soon and finish it off. It's pretty close. The missing part is mostly key handling. I'd like to tidy up my Android patches too and get them submitted so at least Intel android would work out of the box. What do people feel would make Self more viable as a fun project to hack on? -- http://www.bluishcoder.co.nz

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Questions about Self
by David Ungar 03 Jul '16

03 Jul '16

I am pleased and amazed at the attention you all lavish on Self. The recent activity has moved me to wonder: What is it about Self that appeals? What is it that you don’t like? I mean to ask about the language, environment, and implementation, not about the mailing list, web site, or even documentation. One reason this topic interests me is that I am watching the immense popularity of Swift, a somewhat different style of PL, and I am even enjoying Swift myself. Thanks in advance, - David

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Re: Questions about Self
by James Noble 28 Jun '16

28 Jun '16

Dave wrote: > blocks are more basic than lambdas The biggest difference is that lambda syntax (being functional) almost always expect an argument; a function with no arguments doesn't make any sense. Block syntax is optimised to work well in the no-argument case. > in Scheme cond is a primitive, even though it could have been done differently the questions is whether you quote at definition side (Scheme) or use side (Smalltalk) Chris Double (hey two Kiwis in the same thread :-) wrote: > This is how the Pony programming language treats closures. They are sugar for objects with an apply method: yep, lots of langauges do that, incl. Java. The catch is: where does "return" return to? J

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Re: [self-interest] Questions about Self
by David Ungar 27 Jun '16

27 Jun '16

Yes, but I have a long-standing debate with Mark Miller, whom I respect beyond words. And a long-standing unease about trying to understand one paradigm in terms of another according to the sort of argument in this link. Here’s my canonical example: Back in the day, Schemers would tell me that Smalltalk blocks were just Scheme lambdas. Yet, in Smalltalk, every control structure uses blocks (and dynamic dispatch), while in Scheme cond is a primitive, even though it could have been done differently. From a cognitive psych point of view, (see Women, Fire, and Dangerous Things by Lakoff IIRC), blocks are more basic than lambdas. The syntax is much shorter, and they are the fundamental building blocks of control in ST. Even though the interpreter might look similar for the two, there are deep differences in the process of programming, the patterns people reach for, debuggability (including support by the tools), etc. So I always worry, when I read that sort of argument. Whew! Didn’t intent to rant. Thanks, - David > On Jun 25, 2016, at 10:36 AM, 'Welch, Ronald P (US)' Ronald.P.Welch(a)BAESYSTEMS.com [self-interest] <self-interest(a)yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > A third way of looking at objects, which I rather like, is the lambda-based perspective: > > > http://erights.org/elib/capability/ode/ode-objects.html <http://erights.org/elib/capability/ode/ode-objects.html> > > The last paragraph quotes Dr. Alan Kay… > > ----------=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-========oOo========-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=---------- > mailto:Ronald.P.Welch@baesystems.com <mailto:Ronald.P.Welch@baesystems.com> Phone:(607)206-8718 > BAE SYSTEMS 1701 North Street, Endicott, NY 13760 > ----------=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-===================-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=---------- > > On Jun 25, 2016, at 5:39 AM, Stephen De Gabrielle spdegabrielle(a)gmail.com <mailto:spdegabrielle@gmail.com> [self-interest] wrote: > >> *** WARNING *** >> EXTERNAL EMAIL -- This message originates from outside our organization. >> >> >> >> >> So we have prototypes (self & JavaScript) and classes (sometimes added to JavaScript). >> >> >> >> Is there another way? >> >> >> >> S. >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 at 04:23, 'Jason Grossman' spam-me(a)xeny.net <mailto:spam-me@xeny.net> [self-interest] <self-interest(a)yahoogroups.com <mailto:self-interest@yahoogroups.com>> wrote: >> I wrote: >> >> > I just re-watched Alan Kay's famous talk "The Computer Revolution >> > Hasn't Happened Yet", and it sounds to me like a very good argument >> > against classes, although I doubt that he meant it to be! >> >> >> And I've just noticed that Alan Kay has recently (this week!) said: >> >> > I liked Self. "Good OOP" is still waiting for a much better notion to >> > replace the idea of a "Class" >> >> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11939851 <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11939851> >> >> Jason >> >> -- >> Kind regards, >> Stephen >> -- >> Bigger than Scheme, cooler than Clojure & more fun than CL.(n=1) >> -- >> > > >

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Re: Questions about Self
by James Noble 26 Jun '16

26 Jun '16

> So we have prototypes (self & JavaScript) and classes (sometimes added to JavaScript). JavaScript prototypes are very different from Self prototypes. > Is there another way? Yep. Object constructors from Emerald (like Javascripts' { } notation for objects) and concatenation rather than delegation or inheritance. see e.g. http://lively.cs.tut.fi/publications/TR6-JavaScriptConcatenation-Taivalsaar… or more generally http://www.cs.tut.fi/~taivalsa/publications.html or more recently "Object Inheritance Without Classes" - Tim Jones et al http://homepages.ecs.vuw.ac.nz/~tim/publications/ecoop16-object-inheritance… James

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Format of discussion
by Bystroushaak 22 Jun '16

22 Jun '16

I have last question for today (I promise): - How do you see the format of this mail-list? From the 4300 archived messages I've read last month, I've got the impression that this is discussion group used for anything even slightly related to the Self. But as Michael Paap suggested, lately (last 5 years) this mail-list works mostly just as the news delivery service, where discussion is not much expected and can be even annoying to others who don't engage. I am used to discussion threads spreading through hundreds, sometimes even thousands of the messages, with arguments and counter arguments, but now I realize, that this may not be welcomed here. I am sorry for that. I would just like to know everyone's opinion of this subject, and whether it would be a good idea to have separate discussion forum.

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Re: [self-interest] Web Self
by Baltasar García Perez-Schofield 21 Jun '16

21 Jun '16

> Do you mean the Self site at browser.russell.larrikin.org? If so it’s mine not Jecel’s, Ooops, sorry. :-) > and I made it to be a public facing browser only, so you can’t make changes to the underlying image. It wouldn’t be hard to add simple editing in, but we’d then need to do some sort of sandboxing because otherwise every web user/robot could trash it. It would be interesting to have a web version of Self, so everyone could "play" with it without installing anything. I don't know how difficult would be to allow editions in a sandbox per visitor, but it would be a really nice choice. -- Baltasar

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Web Self
by Baltasar García Perez-Schofield 21 Jun '16

21 Jun '16

Hi, Jecel, In the web Self browser you created... can you create new objects? How is that performed? -- baltasar

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Yahoo Groups Guidelines
by spdegabrielle＠gmail.com 21 Jun '16

21 Jun '16

Hi, Yahoo groups have some helpful guidelines. I draw all my fellow subscribers attention to items 2 & 3: 2. Be courteous. Everyone wants to be treated with respect, and showing respect to others makes the community better for all members. 3. Stay on topic. Although all groups are different, most groups appreciate it when you stay on topic.[...] Link and full guidelines below. I will do my best to follow the guidelines and would appreciate it if other members of this group would do the same. Yahoo! Groups also has useful facilities to moderate specific users posts or even ban specific users. I hope this helps. Kind regards, Stephen ---- Yahoo Groups Guidelines https://policies.yahoo.com/us/en/yahoo/guidelines/groups/index.htm Yahoo Groups Guidelines https://policies.yahoo.com/us/en/yahoo/guidelines/groups/index.htm Yahoo Groups helps you connect with groups of people who share your interests and passions. We depend on each member to help keep it a safe, fun, and positive place for everyone. View on policies.yahoo.com https://policies.yahoo.com/us/en/yahoo/guidelines/groups/index.htm Preview by Yahoo Yahoo Groups helps you connect with groups of people who share your interests and passions. We depend on each member to help keep it a safe, fun, and positive place for everyone. Your use of Groups is subject to these Guidelines, and the Yahoo Terms of Service https://policies.yahoo.com/us/en/yahoo/terms/utos/index.html. In short: Be a good citizen — Treat others with respect and report content that violates our Guidelines. Stay on topic — Keep your content relevant to the group and moderate it correctly. Follow the law — We'll take appropriate action if we find you breaking the law. Here's how you can get the most out of Groups: Share what you know. Find the groups that are right for you. Chances are, someone can benefit from what you have to contribute. Be courteous. Everyone wants to be treated with respect, and showing respect to others makes the community better for all members. Stay on topic. Although all groups are different, most groups appreciate it when you stay on topic. If you constantly stray from the topic the group owner may remove your content — or you — from the group altogether. Moderate your content. Keep adult-oriented content only in age-restricted areas. Post your own content. Have the other group member's permissions before re-posting their content. This goes for you too, moderators. Have a good time. When people behave responsibly and respectfully the community thrives and everybody wins. Here are some things Groups shouldn't be used for: Don't violate the law. Members of Yahoo communities are not above the law, so don't post anything that violates the laws of your country, state, province, or city. Don't try to trick people into sharing their personal information, post illegal images, or steal anything (like copyright or trademark material). Don't threaten, harass, impersonate, or hurt others, and don't invade other people's privacy. Don't post content, share software or collect fees in violation of export or import laws. Don't be unkind. Exploitative or degrading comments are not welcome in Groups. Also not welcome are belligerence, insults, slurs, profanity or ranting. If you wouldn't say it in public or with a group of friends, don't post it. Don't use Groups for personal storage. Groups is for sharing and discussing, not for archiving and backing up personal files. Don't use Groups as a business. Yahoo Groups is a community not a marketplace, so we encourage interactions not transactions. Non-Adult groups may charge a reasonable access fee for membership, discuss legitimate products or services and allow classified listings or exchange of legitimate products and services, where relevant to the group. But please note that Yahoo is not involved in or responsible for any commercial activity in Yahoo Groups. Don't be a spammer. Your memberships and the frequency of your activities in Yahoo Groups should be limited to what can reasonably be done by a human. Also, keep off-topic commercial messages out of Groups — they may violate our Spam Policy https://policies.yahoo.com/us/en/yahoo/guidelines/spam/index.html. Yahoo Groups, in its sole discretion, may terminate or remove any content, Group or your Yahoo ID immediately and without notice if (a) Yahoo believes that you have acted inconsistently with the spirit or the letter of the Yahoo Terms of Service or the Yahoo Groups Guidelines, or (b) Yahoo believes you have violated or tried to violate the rights of others. Please help us keep Yahoo Groups an enjoyable and positive experience. If you see a Group or content that violates our rules, please let us know by contacting us https://io.help.yahoo.com/contact/index?page=contact&locale=en_US&y=PROD_GR….

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Blog rules - your opinion
by Bystroushaak 21 Jun '16

21 Jun '16

In this thread, I would like to continue discussion about the Blog and the rules for the writers, without the burden of what was said in the discussion about my blog and about my sense of humor. So: What should be the rules for the blog? Clearly, the blog is owned by Russel Allen, which gives accounts and write access to people who ask for it, but I feel that there is strong group conviction of what should be part of the blog and what not. Some people think that it should be used as „official“ communication channel, other people maybe think of it as a knowledge base, where post should be edited until they are perfect. I myself think of it as a publication space, where author's may write whatever they want, while it is still relevant to the Self. But my own idea may be distorted by my activities on other blog platforms (I've written ~80 blogs at http://abclinuxu.cz/blog/bystroushaak). I would like to see your opinions about this, because I think it is important part of the dialog of what you really want the Self community to be. I am convinced, that you can't expect people to follow rules you don't explicitly declare, so let's declare them.

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Self-interest June 2016