Self-interest August 2002

self-interest@lists.selflanguage.org

18 participants
15 discussions

Re: [self-interest] garbage collection
by Gregory Burd 28 Aug '02

28 Aug '02

I've always wanted to see incremental gc based on the train algorithm put into the Self system. http://www.daimi.au.dk/~beta/Papers/Train/train.abstract.html http://www.daimi.au.dk/~jacobse/Papers/dOOVM/train-doovm.ppt -greg On Tuesday, August 27, 2002, at 06:12 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr wrote: On Tuesday 27 August 2002 18:29, Steve Dekorte wrote: I think I remember reading that Self uses a generational copying garbage collector. Is that right? Yes, there is a "eden space" where new objects are born, two areas forming semi-spaces for "young objects" and a large area of old objects. So we have three generations in all. If so, I'm curious about why that approach was taken instead of something like an incremental tri-color collector. Probably one of the language's designers read this paper and thought it was a good idea: David Ungar, "Generation Scavenging: A Non-disruptive High Performance Storage Reclamation Algorithm", in Proceedings of the ACM SIGSOFT/SIGPLAN Software Engineering Symposium on Practical Software Development Environments, 1984. ;-) A generational collector would avoid the frequent pauses of a mark and sweep collector but would still have infrequent pauses which (I would think) would be a problem for a interactive system. It is indeed a problem - I have spent quite a while staring at the "collecting garbage" dialog box waiting for the system to unfreeze. But that is simply because no effort was made to make the "old space" collection more incremental. If such an effort/redesign were made (while keeping the other generations as they are now) then the system would be more suitable for interactive use. -- Jecel Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

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garbage collection
by Steve Dekorte 28 Aug '02

28 Aug '02

I think I remember reading that Self uses a generational copying garbage collector. Is that right? If so, I'm curious about why that approach was taken instead of something like an incremental tri-color collector. A generational collector would avoid the frequent pauses of a mark and sweep collector but would still have infrequent pauses which (I would think) would be a problem for a interactive system. Cheers, Steve

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Re: real class derived from complex class
by Albertina Lourenci 27 Aug '02

27 Aug '02

Jocoplien(a)cs.com wrote: > In a message dated 8/25/02 10:16:43, lourenci(a)lsi.usp.br writes: > > << As I told you, I would never derive a real class from a complex class. > I would extend the real class to the complex class. >> > > To me, this is somewhat ridiculous. > As far as I remembered I studied complex number at high school more than thirty years ago! In Self you can indicate the coordinates through analytic geometry or in complex form. So I cannot really model it without reviewing things. > > At best, such an approach would be very unhermeneutic :-) It > is not thinking even at an epistemelogical level, let alone a > hermeneutic level. The semiotics at this level are like runes > in most of the languages you have mentioned. Highly probable! I hope Jecel can contribute or Constantinos to the discussion if it is possible from a prototype concerned with modeling real number to derive another prototype concerned with modeling complex number or if this reasoning is highly independent or if it is right to develop a real class from a complex class. > > > In the book I talked about before (by Lamport) I think his claim > is to get beyond runes to the fundamental nub of things. I am > skeptical of such approaches because they suggest that the > problem is independent of the solution taken. My approach is seamless in all levels. Each further level must devise the hermeneutic reasoning of the domain level. And I mean the hermeneutic reasoning is not really explicit in the world around us. Mandelbrot revealed this through his geometry. SEmiotics revealed the world is meaningful but only semiotics shows how to perceive this. Only recently postquantum physicists perceive the world as above all information. Peirce perceived this from 1838 when he was born until 1914!:-) Well I will proceed my reading from James Noble et al's Design patterns as signs. Metaphor is rather the way children see the world until seven years old! Since Selfers see the world as it really is and are able to factor out true commonalities by analogy to build a more complex prototype I think this sort of reasoning deserves especial attention too. I hope someone can respond to my naïve formulation. Is is possible to derive a complex object from a real object in Self or any other language? Apparently they cover complete different realities. > Both self and > C++ introduce their own kinds of problems, and that means the > problem is modeled differently for the respective solution > technologies. Different languages, different semiotics, different > models. > > Here's some real code; let's get concrete, and then abstract > (or, if you prefer, use the concrete as a means for > exhibiting the abstract). This all comes down to code at > some point, and arguments short of code run the risk > of being circular and imprecise. Can you show me how you would > extend the following (or any) Real class to be a Complex? > > Then maybe we will have a baseline should Jecel choose to > contribute a self example... > > class Real { > public: > friend Real operator+(const Real &r1, const Real &r2) { > register Real retval = r1; > retval += r2; > return retval; > } > friend Real operator-(const Real &r1, const Real &r2) ... > friend Real operator*(const Real &r1, const Real &r2) ... > .... > Real &operator+=(const Real &r1) { rep += r1.rep; return *this; } > Real &operator-=(const Real &r1) { rep -= r1.rep; return *this; } > Real &opeartor+=(const Real &r1) ... > .... > Real(double r1): rep(r1) { } > Real(const Real &r1): rep(r1.rep) { } > Real operator=(const Real &r1) { rep = r1.rep; return *this; } > ~Real() { } > private: > double rep; > }; > > class Complex: public (?) Real { > ??? > }; Bye Albertina

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Re: [self-interest] Unlimited integer arithmetics?
by Randy Smith 24 Aug '02

24 Aug '02

> > Do you thing that unlimited integer arithmetics is (from practical point of > view) usable? Is not 64-bit integers good enough for every purpouses? > Coincidentally, I just did a calculation a few weeks ago whose answer was 10 ^ 3200. Further coincidence: a friend yesterday bragged to me about how great Mathematica is. Here is his note, sorry the context will be sensless to you but observe the numbers: __________ included e-mail from my friend ______________ Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 16:36:40 -0700 From: Raphael Rom <actual e-mail address deleted> Subject: mathematica is wonderful To: Randy Smith <Randall.Smith(a)Sun.COM> I hjust spent 45 minutes with mathematica. I managed to compute the actual and approximated sums for N=1000 to N=20000 (20 digits accuray -- these numbers go to 10^-8000!). The ratio real/approximation is 1+10^-7 , meaning we have a very simple and good approximation. Raphi ___________________________________________________ ...so sometimes numbers just get really really big. Annoying little devils. --Randy

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Strange things in Self's gramatics (?)
by Viktor 24 Aug '02

24 Aug '02

Because character ^ is legal in operators, how can I decide what is meaning of "^ 0."? Is it "return with value 0" or "send message #^ to self with argument 0"? Analogic situation is with character '|' (pipe). Yes, there is a solution (^0 is always "return with zero", if I want to send #^ with zero, I have to use "self ^ 0"), but it is at least very ugly thing. Viktor

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Working on Self
by Josh Flowers 23 Aug '02

23 Aug '02

I've got some free time (an hour or two every day) that I'd like to use working on Self, but I'm unsure of who currently oversees the project. Is there any single person or organization that is responsible for future versions? Oh, and does anyone know how to get out of digest mode for this list? Yahoo seems to be sending out digests fairly sporadically. Thanks, josh

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Unlimited integer arithmetics?
by Viktor 22 Aug '02

22 Aug '02

Has standard implementation of Self unlimited integer arithmetics as Smalltalk? I'am new in Self and I have no port for Windows to simply watch it. Viktor

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Shared View of Sharing: The treaty of Orlando
by Thorsten Dittmar 21 Aug '02

21 Aug '02

Does any body have an electronic version of this paper? I only found a paper without the graphics.

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Re: [self-interest] Re: Book on programming with prototypes?
by kyle_hayes＠speakeasy.net 20 Aug '02

20 Aug '02

"Object Oriented Programming with Prototypes", Gunther Blaschek, Springer-Verlag, 1994, ISBN 3-540-56469-1 or ISBN 0-387-56469-1. It is about the programming language Omega which is (was) a prototype-based language for Macintosh. It has a lot of mentions of Self and a few of the elusive language Kevo (if anyone has a copy of Kevo around, let me know!). The first third of the book is about OO and prototype-based languages. I never had a Mac, so it wasn't as useful as it could have been when I got it. Best, Kyle

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Kevo on Mac OS X
by Thorsten Dittmar 14 Aug '02

14 Aug '02

Hi, I send the Kevo Files to the list some days before. During my vacation I had the time to test it. It still works fine under Mac OS X 10.1.5 with a Classic 9 environment. Try it out and have fun... or some enlightenments. Thorsten

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Self-interest August 2002