I am thinking of setting up a new web site for use by all in the Self community. I will pay for it myself, and will also do the necessary programming (in Python, I'm afraid. I can't use Self or even Squeak/PWS to host a site with commercial hosting services) to get it going. The pages will be editable by everyone (with some minimal protection to avoid vandalism), so this won't work unless there are enough interested people.
My idea for the layout would be something like the OutlinerMorphs in Self 4.0, with the following categories:
- People: it isn't much of a community if we don't get to know each other
- Documentation: papers, future books, web pages and any other stuff
- Applications: end user programs like the Browser or Simulators
- Infrastructure: middle level programs. Frameworks like Morphic
- Implementations: virtual machines, like JSelf, Self 4.0 Sparc, Self 4.0 Intel, Self/R, OpenSelf
Well, it wouldn't always be easy to fit a project in one of these categories. And as the list grows, we would have to subdivide into subcategories some of the above. And there would be a lot of interdependece between these projects, so it would be nice to have hyperlinks automatically inserted.
For any given page, the following items can be added separately:
- request: a suggestion for a feature for that project, or even for starting a new project
- bug report: similar to the above, but describing a problem with the project
- change: indicates that some new code has been added. Normally associated with requests and changes. Also has a link from which the source code may be fetched
- comment: can be associated with any of the above (or even with another comment). Forms a very specific an localized discussion
The code included in the changes is always in the form of a patch to be applied to a release. Every once in a while, the project "owner" will gather a set of changes into a new release, thus altering the status of a series of bugs and requests from "pending" to "fixed". Anyone can create any of the above except for a new release.
If this looks like the system in the Smalltalk "green book", that is because that is where the original inspiration came from. I have used CVS for controlling software versions and have also given Aegis a try, but I think this simpler and older system would better serve the needs of this community.
I would really like some feedback on this, If there is enough support, I will create the new site in the first week of June.
-- Jecel
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I am thinking of setting up a new web site for use by all in the Self community.
Sounds like this "WikiWikiWeb" idea Ward Cunningham et.al. What kind of advantages do you expect compared to this email list?
I will pay for it myself, and will also do the necessary programming (in Python, I'm afraid. I can't use Self or even Squeak/PWS to host a site with commercial hosting services)
There's a package called pyweb which is a RCS based wiki web implemented in Python. (It comes with a full set Kent Beck-style unit test, btw :-) If you can't locate it in the web, I can set you a copy. It's GLPed, I think.
to get it going. The pages will be editable by everyone (with some minimal protection to avoid vandalism), so this won't work unless there are enough interested people.
IMHO, the advantage of a wiki-style web is the collaboration aspect. While a mailing list tends to feature a general - not targeted - discussion, such kind of web can help to reach a certain goal. If there is one. I'm not sure whether just the existance of the infrastructure will trigger the needed goal and I believe you actually want to set the goal first :-)
My idea for the layout would be something like the OutlinerMorphs in Self 4.0, with the following categories:
Otherwise I like these categories however, all wikis I know of feature the creation of any kind of additional web pages so it shouldn't be difficult to add more categories if needed or even work without categories at all.
For any given page, the following items can be added separately:
Here, this become more interesting as you leave the scope of a simple wiki and add more semantics to a page. I like this (especially as this goes conform with another (somewhat secret) project of mine, code-named contiki, where people can comment on pages without changing them, having a list of request per page which can be dealt with by the page maintainer). I didn't know that the green book already described such a system. (I really would want to get my hands on a copy of that book :-)
bye -- Stefan Matthias Aust // Bevor wir fallen, fallen wir lieber auf.
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Stefan Matthias Aust wrote:
Sounds like this "WikiWikiWeb" idea Ward Cunningham et.al. What kind of advantages do you expect compared to this email list?
It is indeed much like the Wiki Wiki Web or the SWiki, but I felt something more structured would be better. I was thinking more of a web application that combined some features of CVS and GNAT instead of an editable web site. To answer your question - this site would be strucutured and specific, while this list would continue to be linear and general.
For example, you would post something like "how do I convert a data slot into a constant slot using mirrors" in this mailing list, while something like "morphs don't restore the background properly when moving" would have a specific place in the new site.
[pyweb]
Sounds very interesting, but looking through some search engines (even at http://www.python.org) didn't turn up anything. It is always nice to look at sample source code, but I will still have to write most of this site from scratch.
IMHO, the advantage of a wiki-style web is the collaboration aspect. While a mailing list tends to feature a general - not targeted - discussion, such kind of web can help to reach a certain goal. If there is one. I'm not sure whether just the existance of the infrastructure will trigger the needed goal and I believe you actually want to set the goal first :-)
You are right. The goal of this site is to gather in one place information about all projects relating to Self, their status, proposed stuff that people can help with. We need to be able to build on each other's work and avoid needless duplication of effort.
For any given page, the following items can be added separately:
Here, this become more interesting as you leave the scope of a simple wiki and add more semantics to a page. I like this (especially as this goes conform with another (somewhat secret) project of mine, code-named contiki, where people can comment on pages without changing them, having a list of request per page which can be dealt with by the page maintainer). I didn't know that the green book already described such a system. (I really would want to get my hands on a copy of that book :-)
The system described in "Smalltalk-80: Bits of History, Words of Advice" (the green book) started out as simple set of rules about emails subject titles and file server directories relating to Smalltalk development inside Xerox Parc. This later evolved into a series of special browsers (bug report, new version generation, code submittion, etc) to automate the system they had already working manually. We built a system like this in C on top of QNX in 1988 and I was very pleased with the result.
RCS or CVS only take care of maintaining the source code, but a more complex system like Aegis includes something like the green book system (and improves it a little by adding testing as a requirement for moving changes between developers).
About adding comments to pages, have you ever seen HyperNews (http://www.hypernews.org)? I tried it here and it was quite nice. I am not a big Perl fan, but this code was pretty reasonable. I actually intended to create this list with HyperNews instead of egroups, but couldn't meet with the administrators of lsi.usp.br to deploy this software there.
Two things about the new site that I forgot to mention in my previous post:
- at some point there will be a demand for the software at this site to be distributed via CD-ROMs. Many people prefer to pay $20 or so in order not to have to download 30MB over a modem. I am looking into selling these CD-ROMs myself (though anyone else is free to do so as well). Should I have a system where people can tag that stuff they put on the web site shouldn't go into the CD-ROM?
- the site will be multilingual: every page will include links to the same content in other languages, and every link will include all available language options. The translation process will be manual, so at any given time the ammount of information available in different languages can differ considerably. Whenever a change is made to a page, the versions in other languages will be automatically tagged as outdated until someone changes them as well. In a text browser, it would look something like this:
go to the technology page[pt][FR][es][de]. Also see... --------------- -- -- -- --
The link to the English version of the page is "technology page" since this is found in an English text. The link "pt" would make you jump to a Portuguese version of that page, but it is not as current as the English version (lower case). The "FR" link is to an up to date French version of the page, while "es" and "de" would take you to Spanish and German versions which have not been updated. The same text would look like this when seen in a Portuguese version:
vá para a página de tecnologia[EN][FR][es][de]. Veja também... -------------------- -- -- -- --
This would all be generated automatically, and from any page you can access the "translate this page" button to help keep the site in working order.
-- Jecel
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Jecel Assumpcao Jr -
Stefan Matthias Aust