<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=windows-1252"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Yes, but I have a long-standing debate with Mark Miller, whom I respect beyond words. And a long-standing unease about trying to understand one paradigm in terms of another according to the sort of argument in this link.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Here’s my canonical example: Back in the day, Schemers would tell me that Smalltalk blocks were just Scheme lambdas. Yet, in Smalltalk, every control structure uses blocks (and dynamic dispatch), while in Scheme cond is a primitive, even though it could have been done differently. From a cognitive psych point of view, (see Women, Fire, and Dangerous Things by Lakoff IIRC), blocks are more basic than lambdas. The syntax is much shorter, and they are the fundamental building blocks of control in ST. Even though the interpreter might look similar for the two, there are deep differences in the process of programming, the patterns people reach for, debuggability (including support by the tools), etc.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">So I always worry, when I read that sort of argument.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Whew! Didn’t intent to rant.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Thanks,</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">- David</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jun 25, 2016, at 10:36 AM, 'Welch, Ronald P (US)' <a href="mailto:Ronald.P.Welch@baesystems.com" class="">Ronald.P.Welch@BAESYSTEMS.com</a> [self-interest] <<a href="mailto:self-interest@yahoogroups.com" class="">self-interest@yahoogroups.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="font-size: 13px; font-family: Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); position: relative;" class=""><div id="ygrp-msg" style="line-height: 1.22em; z-index: 1;" class=""><div id="ygrp-text" style="line-height: 1.22em; font-family: Georgia;" class=""><p style="line-height: 1.22em; margin: 0px 0px 1em;" class="">A third way of looking at objects, which I rather like, is the lambda-based perspective:</p><div style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><br style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""></div><div style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><a href="http://erights.org/elib/capability/ode/ode-objects.html" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">http://erights.org/elib/capability/ode/ode-objects.html</a></div><div style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><br style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""></div><div style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">The last paragraph quotes Dr. Alan Kay…</div><div style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><br style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""></div><div style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><div apple="true" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">----------=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-========oOo========-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=----------<br style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><a href="mailto:Ronald.P.Welch@baesystems.com" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">mailto:Ronald.P.Welch@baesystems.com</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span> Phone:(607)206-8718<br style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">BAE SYSTEMS 1701 North Street, Endicott, NY 13760<br style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">----------=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-===================-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=----------<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></div><br style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><div style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><div style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">On Jun 25, 2016, at 5:39 AM, Stephen De Gabrielle<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:spdegabrielle@gmail.com" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">spdegabrielle@gmail.com</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[self-interest] wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><blockquote type="cite" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 4px; line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><div style="line-height: 1.22em; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><div style="line-height: 1.22em; padding: 1pt 4pt;" class=""><p class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="margin: 0px 0px 1em; line-height: 1.22em; text-align: center; padding: 0in;"><span style="line-height: 1.22em; font-family: Arial;" class=""><span style="line-height: 1.22em; font-size: 11px;" class=""><span style="line-height: 1.22em; font-size: 12pt;" class="">*<strong style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">**<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span style="line-height: 1.22em; font-size: 13px;" class=""><span style="line-height: 1.22em; font-size: 13px;" class=""><span style="line-height: 1.22em; font-size: 11px;" class=""><span style="line-height: 1.22em; font-size: 13px;" class="">WARNIN</span><span style="line-height: 1.22em; font-size: 13px;" class="">G</span></span></span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>***</strong></span><br style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><span style="line-height: 1.22em; font-size: 13px;" class="">EXTERNAL EMAIL -- This message originates from outside our organization</span>.</span></span></p></div><br style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""></div><span style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""> </span><div id="ygrp-text" style="line-height: 1.22em; font-family: Georgia;" class=""><div style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><br class="webkit-block-placeholder" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></div><div style="line-height: 1.22em; white-space: pre-wrap;" class="">So we have prototypes (self & JavaScript) and classes (sometimes added to JavaScript).<br style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">
<br style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">
Is there another way?<br style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">
<br style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">
S.<br style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">
<br style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">
</div><br style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><div class="gmail_quote" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><div dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 at 04:23, 'Jason Grossman'<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:spam-me@xeny.net" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">spam-me@xeny.net</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[self-interest] <<a href="mailto:self-interest@yahoogroups.com" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">self-interest@yahoogroups.com</a>> wrote:<br style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 4px; line-height: 1.22em; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid;"><div style="line-height: 1.22em; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><div style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><div style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><div style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><p style="line-height: 1.22em; margin: 0px 0px 1em;" class="">I wrote:<br style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><br style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">> I just re-watched Alan Kay's famous talk "The Computer Revolution<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">> Hasn't Happened Yet", and it sounds to me like a very good argument<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">> against classes, although I doubt that he meant it to be!<br style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><br style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""></p></div></div></div></div><div style="line-height: 1.22em; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><div style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><div style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><div style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><p style="line-height: 1.22em; margin: 0px 0px 1em;" class="">And I've just noticed that Alan Kay has recently (this week!) said:<br style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><br style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">> I liked Self. "Good OOP" is still waiting for a much better notion to<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">> replace the idea of a "Class"<br style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><br style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11939851" target="_blank" style="line-height: 1.22em; font-family: Verdana;" class="">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11939851</a><br style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><br style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">Jason<br style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""></p></div></div></div></div><div style="line-height: 1.22em; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><div style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><div style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><div style="line-height: 1.22em; color: rgb(255, 255, 255); min-height: 0px;" class=""></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">--<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""></div><div data="gmail_signature" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><div dir="ltr" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">Kind regards,<br style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">Stephen<br style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">--<br style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">Bigger than Scheme, cooler than Clojure & more fun than CL.(n=1)<br style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">--</div></div><div style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><br class="webkit-block-placeholder" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""></div><div style="line-height: 1.22em; margin: 0px 0px 1em;" class=""><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></div><div style="line-height: 1.22em; color: rgb(255, 255, 255); height: 0px;" class=""></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></body></html>