<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Hm, to our understanding for example <a href="http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=/netahtml/PTO/search-adv.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&d=PALL&S1=06085035&OS=PN/06085035&RS=PN/06085035">#6085035</a> covers technology used in Self as well :/<div><br></div><div>Cheers Jan<br><div><div>On Sep 25, 2011, at 20:25 PM, David Ungar wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite">
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<div id="ygrp-text"><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div>The Self VM work was done jointly at Sun and Stanford. I would be surprised if any Sun patents involved it. The Sun patents were done later, as we were thinking about Java. <br><br>-- David (tapped out on my iPhone; blame it for any typoze;-)</div><div><br>On Sep 25, 2011, at 11:22 AM, Jan-Paul Bultmann <<a href="mailto:janpaulbultmann@me.com">janpaulbultmann@me.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
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<div id="ygrp-text"><p><br></p><div><div>On Sep 25, 2011, at 19:51 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite">
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<div id="ygrp-text"><p>Jan-Paul,<br>
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It is very important to note that some words are used in different ways<br>
in different projects. Otherwise you can have some very confusing<br>
discussions.<br>
<br>
"Traits" in Self come from Adele Goldberg's teaching scheme for early<br>
Smalltalk where she purposely used different words than the standard<br>
jargon to informally introduce ideas before moving on to the actual<br>
details for the language. So she would first get people to think about<br>
which "traits" an object might have before showing them the "class" that<br>
implemented the idea.<br>
<br>
Beyond "traits", Self also has "mixins". These names are just<br>
conventions and at the language level we just have parent objects, but<br>
the different names indicate the different intent behind these objects.<br>
<br>
Several languages, including Strongtalk which evolved from Self, have<br>
"mixins" as an important feature. So when the research group at Bern<br>
decided to add to Squeak a modified version of "mixins", they decided to<br>
use a different name so their changes wouldn't be overlooked. That is<br>
what "traits" in Squeak or Pharo are. This has been copied in several<br>
other projects and languages and so is currently what is normally<br>
understood by the term. This is, however, different from what is<br>
described in the paper that David indicated.<br>
<br>
Back when JIT implementations were less common, one term that caused a<br>
lot of confusion was "compiler". For Smalltalk-80 the term meant the<br>
source the bytecode translation program while for Self that was called<br>
the "parser" and "compiler" meant the bytecode to native machine code<br>
translator instead.<br>
<br>
> Btw, Davidmay I humbly ask you on your thoughts on Io as a language ^^?<br>
> Another grab bag one, or maybe a worthy successor to Self if enhanced<br>
> with its Environment ;)?<br>
<br>
I am not David (either one ;-) , but I have been a part of the Io<br>
community since the very beginning. This is another case of the same<br>
words being used differently and causing confusion. Io comes from the<br>
Newtonscript tradition of "prototypes", not the Self style. Even Steve<br>
Dekorte was confused about this for a very long time, and I can't blame<br>
him since when I first read "The Power of Simplicity" paper I also<br>
imagined something like Io rather than what Self actually is. But those<br>
ideas are actually from Henry Lieberman's 1986 "Using Prototypical<br>
Objects to Implement Shared Behavior in Object-Oriented Systems" paper<br>
instead.<br>
<br></p></div></div></blockquote></div>Yeah the naming clash is amazing especially when one works with projects that used terms before everybody else did^^<div>Thanks for the insight on the different origins :D</div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><div id="ygrp-mlmsg"><div id="ygrp-msg"><div id="ygrp-text"><p>
While I like Io, it has never had the kind of implementation technology<br>
that Self has always had and which recently has also come to Javascript.<br></p></div></div></div></div></blockquote>Yeah we're kinda working on that with the recent acute implementation^^</div><div>One problem with this is though that Oracle still holds a lot of Davids original patents so were a bit hesitant about implementing all the power of Self.</div><div>Most of them run out in 2014 I think, there are a lot of projects though that are bold enough to simply implement them, but with Oracles recent suing happines its kinda difficult ^^</div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><div id="ygrp-mlmsg"><div id="ygrp-msg"><div id="ygrp-text"><p>
That community is actually smaller and currently less active than the<br>
Self one, so I wouldn't expect world domination from that direction any<br>
time soon.<br></p></div></div></div></div></blockquote>Smaller yes, less active no. :) You should really visit the #io channel on <a href="http://irc.freenode.net/"></a><a href="http://irc.freenode.net/">irc.freenode.net</a></div><div><br></div><div>Io has the advantage that it is conceptually simpler than Self, so there are more concepts that can arise out of a small base language, like resends and annotations.</div><div>There are vastly parts missing though like Morphic and the Image. But it has a far superior concurrency model.</div><div>Interestingly we can get a Self like look with acute ^^ by encouraging small number of arguments and having a single arg syntax.</div><div>list(1,2,3) at:1 data</div><div>list(1,2,3) at:1 put:5</div><div>As at: returns a listIndex.</div><div><br></div><div>Currently we are working on a VM for Prototype languages, it could be interesting to combine the small working force of the Self and Io communities.</div><div>When lookup is just a slot on Objects
(as we plan to do it) it would be
trivial to implement different Inheritance models and thus support both languages :) the rest is just syntax^^</div><div><br></div><div>Cheers Jan</div><div><blockquote type="cite"><div style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><div id="ygrp-mlmsg"><div id="ygrp-msg"><div id="ygrp-text"><p>
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-- Jecel<br>
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