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<p><font color="#CC33CC"><font size=+1>Randy Smith wrote:</font></font><font color="#CC33CC"><font size=+1></font></font>
<p><font color="#CC33CC"><font size=+1>Thanks Randy! Indeed in the same
paper Ousterhout recognizes</font></font>
<br><i><font color="#CC33CC"><font size=+1>there are many interesting languages
that cannot be characterized</font></font></i>
<br><i><font color="#CC33CC"><font size=+1>cleanly as a system programming
language or a scripting language.</font></font></i>
<br><i><font color="#CC33CC"><font size=+1>For example, the LISP family
of languages lies somewhere between</font></font></i>
<br><i><font color="#CC33CC"><font size=+1>scripting and system programming
with some of the attributes of each.</font></font></i><i><font color="#CC33CC"><font size=+1></font></font></i>
<p><i><font color="#CC33CC"><font size=+1>LIsp pioneered concepts such
as interpretation and dynamic typing</font></font></i>
<br><i><font color="#CC33CC"><font size=+1>that are now common in scripting
languages, as well as automatic</font></font></i>
<br><i><font color="#CC33CC"><font size=+1>storage management and integrated
development environments which</font></font></i>
<br><i><font color="#CC33CC"><font size=+1>are now used in both scripting
and system programming languages.</font></font></i>
<br><font color="#FF6600"><font size=+1>Do you think Self plays the role
of a programming and scripting language?</font></font>
<br><font color="#FF6600"><font size=+1>I don''t have the book or have
experienced with Tcl or Motif</font></font>
<br><font color="#FF6600"><font size=+1>to check if indeed it deals with
policy or strategy perfectly well.</font></font>
<br><font color="#FF6600"><font size=+1>Indeed Agile Development Software
Ecosystems try to do this.</font></font>
<br><font color="#FF6600"><font size=+1>However they try to do this based
on natural language! Something</font></font>
<br><font color="#FF6600"><font size=+1>like Christopher Alexander does
in his books<i> A pattern language or</i></font></font>
<br><font color="#FF6600"><font size=+1><i>The Nature of Order. </i>Indeed
the general theory of the sign from</font></font>
<br><font color="#FF6600"><font size=+1>Peirce tries to overcome this difficulty.
And the Greimasian semiotics</font></font>
<br><font color="#FF6600"><font size=+1>unfolds the same concern in a more
scientific way I believe.</font></font>
<br><font color="#FF6600"><font size=+1>(My postdoctorate Scientific Report
III deals with this - see my homepage -</font></font>
<br><font color="#FF6600"><font size=+1>however I was shyly trying to unravel
a morphodynamic level there)</font></font>
<br><font color="#FF6600"><font size=+1>I have not gathered my recent conclusions
about this in a report yet.</font></font>
<br><font color="#FF6600"><font size=+1></font></font>
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>Okay Albertina, I'll try to respond for you here:
Self's GUI was never
<br>tuned to being like Motif or being fully brought up to address the
<br>construction of stand alone, single apps. Rather we were exploring
the
<br>sense of a world in which many applications could be created and
<br>recombined. Nevertheless, our hypothesis has always been that the
<br>difficulties Ousterhout observes (the problem of bridging the direct
GUI
<br>environment with a general purpose programming language) can be
<br>addressed. There are difficulties of course, and deep issues such as
the
<br>fact that direct GUI assembly and modification is a different
<br>environment than the textual environment of the language's code.</blockquote>
<font color="#FF6600"><font size=+1>See my main problem with graphical
user interfaces is that</font></font>
<br><font color="#FF6600"><font size=+1>they are based on Euclidean geometry.
My algebraic-geometric modeling</font></font>
<br><font color="#FF6600"><font size=+1>is based on symmetry groups of
the plane and the dotless plane</font></font>
<br><font color="#FF6600"><font size=+1>(similarity symmetry groups and
conformal symmetry groups).</font></font>
<br><font color="#FF6600"><font size=+1>And of course the underlying algebra
is textual transformable</font></font>
<br><font color="#FF6600"><font size=+1>into geometric groups. This is
cool! Likewsise graph theory where</font></font>
<br><font color="#FF6600"><font size=+1>we also have planar graphs.</font></font>
<br><font color="#FF6600"><font size=+1>Hence I would like to mimic this
in a collaborative aware</font></font>
<br><font color="#FF6600"><font size=+1>architecture. Of course the (hermeneutic
= dialogue, chat, game) nature</font></font>
<br><font color="#FF6600"><font size=+1>of the Self language matches</font></font>
<br><font color="#FF6600"><font size=+1>my artistic needs. However I think
there are too many things implicit</font></font>
<br><font color="#FF6600"><font size=+1>in the programming environment.</font></font>
<br><font color="#FF6600"><font size=+1>I know nothing about Motif but
to pick up ready stuff sounds nasty.</font></font>
<br><font color="#FF6600"><font size=+1>Of course Self (Kansas) tries to
bridge the gap between programmers</font></font>
<br><font color="#FF6600"><font size=+1>and language developers.</font></font>
<br><font color="#FF6600"><font size=+1>One should strive to embed things
in an infinitely encompassing level of</font></font>
<br><font color="#FF6600"><font size=+1>abstraction.I was successful to
do this in my domain model as well</font></font>
<br><font color="#FF6600"><font size=+1>as in my geometric modeling. Why
not to pursue the same goals</font></font>
<br><font color="#FF6600"><font size=+1>in architecture and programming
code of my knowledge system to</font></font>
<br><font color="#FF6600"><font size=+1>design and plan sustainable cities?</font></font>
<br><font color="#FF6600"><font size=+1>Best wishes</font></font>
<br><font color="#FF6600"><font size=+1>Albertina</font></font>
<br>> <a href="http://www.lsi.usp.br/~lourenci">http://www.lsi.usp.br/~lourenci</a>
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>
<p>Albertina Lourenci wrote:
<br>>
<br>>
<br>> Randy Smith wrote:
<br>> Hi Randy!
<br>> John K. Ousterhout in IEEE Computer March 1998 writes:
<br>> I am not aware of any rapid-development environments for
<br>> GUIs based on a system programming language. Whether the
<br>> environment is Windows, Macintosh Toolbox or Unix Motif
<br>> GUI toolkits based on languages such as C or C++ have proven
<br>> hard to learn, clumsy to use, and inflexible in the results
<br>> 'they produce.Some of these systems have nice graphical tools
<br>> for designing screen layouts that hide the underlying language,
<br>> but things become difficult as soon as the designer has to write
<br>> code, for example to provide the behaviors for the interface elements.
<br>> All of the best rapid development GUI environments are based
<br>> on scripting languages: Visual Basic, HyperCard and Tcl/TK. page
28
<br>>
<br>>
<br>> I would like you to comment on Self's GUI within the context
<br>> put forward by Ousterhout. For him scripting languages deal
<br>> with policy and system programming languages with mechanisms.
<br>> He sees no problem in implementing scripting languages in
<br>> programming languages of course. Indeed TCl is implemented
<br>> in C. It may also be extended in C.
<br>>
<br>> Have a fun-filled, peaceful, creative weekend
<br>> Albertina
<br>> <a href="http://www.lsi.usp.br/~lourenci">http://www.lsi.usp.br/~lourenci</a>
<br>>
<br>>> TCL already existed before John Osterhaut (spelling?) joined Sun,
and
<br>>> while Tcl was here, there was very little mutual influence between
the
<br>>> Self and TCL groups, since both were rather mature and conceptually
far
<br>>> apart by the time.
<br>>>
<br>>> --Randy
<br>>>
<br>>> Albertina Lourenci wrote:
<br>>> > Dear Selfers!
<br>>> > I am curious if there are any relationship
<br>>> > between Kansas and Tcl, both from Sun!
<br>>> > Best wishes
<br>>> > Albertina
<br>>> > <a href="http://www.lsi.usp.br/~lourenci">http://www.lsi.usp.br/~lourenci</a>
<br>>> >
<br>>> >
<br>>> >
<br>>> > Yahoo! Groups Links
<br>>> >
<br>>> >
<br>>> >
<br>>> >
<br>>>
<br>>>
<br>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
<br>>>
<br>>>
<br>>>
<br>>>
<br>>>
<br>>
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