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<blockquote TYPE=CITE>Jecel Assumpcao Jr wrote:</blockquote>
<br>> the short answer is: to focus on Java.
<p>I would have thought that Sun was "big" enough to develop both languages
<p><br>Unfortunately it is not and so the possibility appears for other
areas to be
<br>in parallel to possibly get shares in both language-markets ( that
<br>C++ and Smalltalk ). IMHO there are Smalltalkers that could be convinced
<br>to migrate to the possibly (? - I have no real experience in both
<br>languages) more powerful Self-language - especially if given the right
<br>code transformation tools to save their former work - instead of -
<br>giving up the mighty and convenient concepts they got used to by
<br>switching to Java.</blockquote>
Examining other prototype-based languages like Agora (Vrje University)
<br>or Kevo, they are a far cry from the simplicity of Self. They do not
<br>the musical Kansas that I hope could be really transformed into
<br>a true virtual reality tool!!!
<br>The new API - delegation into Java has too many lines of code. I do
<br>know it is hard to compare languages based on this criteria and at
<br>right moment my brain (which works by modules) is connected to
<br>reflection and media space so I cannot force an analysis here!
<br>What I am sure being a green architect is that no artist will want
<br>to learn Java. It would be wonderful if there would have tutorials
<br>in Self like those written by the Danes and the Swedish and Norwegians.
<br>Scandinavians are really able of right-sided brain approach. I read
<br>all they write so easily. Of course papers from the Self language
<br>are also attractive to me but they are not intertwined the way they\
<br>managed to do with Simula and Beta!!!!
<br>Until today I cannot understand how the debugger in Self works!!!
<br>How easy it was for me to understand the OO metaprogramming
<br>system in Beta based on grammar based architecuture.
<br>How nice their explanation of different kinds of environments:
<br>hand-crafted: language-specific, supporting one single language
<br>like Smalltalk, Interlisp and Turbo-Pascal
<br>generated: the Mjolner Beta system
<br>and grammar-interpreting:the grammars can be developed interactively
<br>with immediate feedback on modifications.Mjolner Orm system connected
<br>Reading the OO environments: the Mjolner approach from Knudsen
<br>et al (Prentice Hall 1994), one can feel how we can shape info
<br>systems. And yet it is far from being ideal because it is based
<br>on papers. There should be a didactic book for one to feel
<br>the differences and similarities between the languages.
<br>But having studied this book carefully one feels computer science
<br>is not magic...The debugger looks like magic to me!!!
<p>Users for Self are certainly people from applied areas like
<br>architecture, art and so on. The exponents in design have
<br>a scornful attitude towards computer science. So to fill the gap
<br>would require a powerful application where once can really
<br>sense that computers are really modelling the way the artist
<br>sees the world!
<br>This is the promise of my ecodesign model implemented in Self!
<br>> Note that Sun also killed TCL and Spring OS at that time (the latter
<br>> focus on Solaris).
<br>> I can only offer you an outsider's view, but it is interesting to
<br>> compare what Java and Self were in 1995. Java was small and there
<br>> many missing pieces, but a killer application has just appeared that
<br>> could take advantage of its modular nature: platform independent
<br>> applications for the web. Self was large and monolithic, but flexible
<br>> and feature packed. It probably seemed easier to grow Java as needed
<br>> than to slim down Self.
<br>> -- Jecel
<p>I see. Is it eventually too late (or even too early - anyway to
<br>expensive at this moment) to pay for more R&D in Self even (or
<br>especially) for the other big players ? Anyway - possibly these kind
<br>tasks are not the domain of the big players (?).
<p>What about the following hypothetic "big-player statements":
<p>- "It would be so much more to spend for R&D to getting Self in
<br>market that we just can't (want) afford it".
<p>(I'm a little sceptical about this statement because a lot if not most
<br>of R&D for programming-languages is probably done in universities
<br>isn't it ?).
<p>- "We will loose so much shares by getting Self in the market".
<p><br>Here in the state of Sao Paulo, one could get more than a million
<br>to pursue such a development. FAPESP (Foundation of Protection toResearch
<br>of Sao Paulo State) have programs for the university, the joint cooperation
<br>between university and entreprises and only for entreprises.
<br>The bad thing with Self is that there are only entrepreneurs involved!!!
<br>Even if one has a PHD degree it does not tune with the needs of the
<br>financing agencies for leadership.
<br>Being an architect of course I cannot start an emergent center alone
<br>on this. If this happens one can channel lots of money.
<p>So how to build a bridge?
<br>My main goal at the moment is to generate a really free plan in architecture
<br>and urban design. While I have not reached this goal I cannot go
<br>to the scientific director of FAPESP and explain to him what is happening!
<br>It would be nice to go there with this project (if successful) and
<br>him see how easy it is to mimic the very complex architectonic thinking
<br>through intelligent programs in Self!!!!
<p>Then the Selfers think this will lead nowhere , because what is
<br>is a version of Self for PC, a processor for Self and Java, all these
<br>I have been reading about in the list. I know this is important.
<br>But since I could study architecture, ecology, symmetry groups of the
<br>and OO programming in parallell why shouldn't the computer scientists
<br>learn to do the same?
<br>When I started in 1988 nobody have heard of OO in the universities.
<br>I discover after eight months of daily reading papers in computer
<br>I stopped my graduate studies for five years to do this!!!I did
<br>if I would starve or not!!!For me things are "to be or not to be".
<br>See the outcome now: the "diamond-language" is stuck!!!
<br>If there would be hope of the appearance of at least another better
<br>So let's stick to it and see what can be done to improve it!
<br>We can support post-doctorate researchers in Laboratory of integrated
<br>systems to do this right now!!! To work in collaboration with my research!
<p>Happy New Millennium, that God may bless us all and shape a wiser
| Albertina Lourenci |
| PhD in Architecture and Urbanism |
| post-doctorate researcher |
| Laboratory of Integrated Systems University of Sao Paulo |
| Avenida Professor Luciano Gualberto, 158 Travessa 3 |
| CEP: 05508-900 |
| Sao Paulo Sao Paulo State Brazil |
| Voice: +55 011 818 5254 |
| Fax: +55 11 211 4574 |