[self-interest] Performance figures interesting
jas at cruzio.com
Wed May 10 06:10:08 UTC 2006
At 08:38 PM 5/9/2006, Michael Latta wrote:
>It is definitely not a good idea to take such a micro benchmark too
>seriously. This was just what I had available that could be run on this
>many different Smalltalk VMs.
>I would think that the two machines are basically well matched in
>performance, given similar architectures and clock rates for CPU and memory.
>If anything the Mac should be faster given the 1Ghz FSB per CPU.
>What did get my attention is that the Self version we have (10 years old) is
>not keeping up with even the more simple implementations available from
>Squeak and VisualWorks. I expect that the Klein VM will do better, but even
>that will only have research level support, so there will be lots of things
>that never get done.
>I am struggling with the issues of better technology vs. industry momentum
>on many levels these days, and this is just one example where the lack of
>resources seems to be limiting the success of the technically better
>solution. I like the concept of Self better than Smalltalk (directly
>manipulating instances rather than all behavior and structure organized into
>classes), and I much prefer Smalltalk to Java or C#. Unfortunately the
>expectations on all applications are rising and the Smalltalk based
>technologies are not keeping pace.
Specific areas that are/will/might impact you?
(other than UI?)
> The UI frameworks in Smalltalk can not
>do the things that WPF in C# can do.
Also, have you tried Dolphin Smalltalk? (windows only).
The UI is excellent.
> The level of polish on VisualWorks is
>not competitive with Eclipse for Java.
Depends how one defines polish.
Yes, VW is still playing catch-up in terms of look-and-feel.
But it still eclipses Eclipse in terms of operation.
Which version of VisualWorks?
> At the same time I can solve
>problems faster in Smalltalk and do things that the more mainstream systems
>can not come close to doing.
>For Smalltalk to survive
"survive" is perhaps not the right concern.
It has so far outlived ALL the competition (in years of service),
and still processes a large percentage of the world's 'critical'
> it needs better connectivity to other technologies
>like Java, C#,
> and web services,
> and there needs to be more invested into
>making it competitive in terms of quality and performance.
Seems to me the performance is ok.
And the quality is extraordinary.
VW needs a facelift, which is well underway,
but yes, more investment would be nice --
a catch-22 lurks here, however.
Squeak has problems here, too.
> While users do
>not generally care about what technology a product is built on, the IT
But which is the more sane reaction?
> In the enterprise space it needs to fit in.
Politically, technically, or how?
> In the
>end-user space it needs to look credible compared to other applications.
Ideally, sure. For windows only, Dolphin is highly credible in this regard.
Which is superb -- but -- they only need to keep pace with Windows.
Cross platform UI technology is more difficult -> requires more resources.
>Morphic under Squeak is the most polished of the UI options for Smalltalk,
Morphic is the most *interesting* UI for any development environment,
but Dolphin is the most *polished* of the UI options for Smalltalk.
>but does not use native windows,
> and Visual Works which uses native windows,
(VW doesn't -- that's cross platform emulation, switchable to any
look and feel on the fly. It is 'behind' the times, because the
VW team size was reduced to single digit for a number of years,
and the the GUI languished. That situation has improved, but it
will be another year or so before you'll really *see* the result.)
>still has 10 year old refresh bugs that make it look very unprofessional.
>For standalone computers like you are building Jecel it makes more sense
>than for applications trying to exist in a Microsoft/IBM dominated world.
Desktop? Yup - you may need to use Dolphin in this environment.
Headless server? GUI is irrelevant, and VW beats most comers.
>Smalltalk is what got me into computers,
You lucky dog ;-)
Some of us went the long way 'round the barn...
>and I have not found anything I
I'll drink to that.
> I just hope I can find ways to keep using it professionally.
Simple. Don't leave home without it.
Ah - you want income, too, I suppose?
That's a bit tougher. Chin up, fight the good fight.
Support the producers of good tools, so they'll produce more.
Resist attempts to migrate (sic) without a rational business case.
Teach someone to program in Smalltalk. Start a Union.
Bang the drum at every opportunity. It will get better.
More information about the Self-interest